353. - Alexander Shulan

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts. or watch on YouTube. Coming at you live, 100% humidity in New York City. It's hot as hell. The fucking Chrisleys are going to jail. I saw a guy get into the shower at Barry's with a mask on. Things are fucking crazy, man. Okay, you got to – one at a time. Because yesterday when we were texting, because we were going to have a guest on today's episode, they had to postpone due to some personal matters. Everyone's fine. Don't worry about that. But you, like, did a tweet about, like, three things. And I was like, well, we don't even need a guest. I can just talk about these three things. And you just did it to me again. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've just got bars, baby. It's good. But it was like, I forgot. Do you remember what the three things were? The three things were the New York Times discovering roommates. And then talking about the caviar bumps, which I would prefer to never hear that again. But I'm more focused on this guy I saw. Okay, let's do the mask first because that is really good. He left the Barry's class drenched in sweat like the rest of us. We're in the locker room. I see him stripped down to his skivvies. Then he's one of those guys who has the tiny little man bun that is barely held together by the rubber band.

He dramatically unfurls his little poof of hair on top of his head. Takes the rubber band out. Leaves the mask on. Steps into the shower. Hog out. Hog dangling. Mask on. So butt ass naked. Pull up to the hotel room wearing nothing but an N95. Quick question for you, Jason. Get ready to take this dick. Think about this. Think about this. Have you ever been completely nude and had a mask on? That is insane. Have I ever been? completely nude, but wearing a mask. Canadian customs did kind of put me through a little bit of that, but not electively. I've never done it electively. So this guy, yeah, and I was just thinking to myself, like, is this a situation like me where sometimes I would get into the shower with glasses on because I'd forget that I had them on? Or was this guy taking it so seriously three years on that he's like, you know what? My hair is coming down. My hog is coming out. My mask is staying on. You just presented a scenario that I didn't even consider. And it is real because sometimes, especially when you're in the Barry zone or any type of workout zone, you look at the clock, you're like, oh, fuck, I'm running late on time. You know, this guy's been wearing a mask. in berries in the block you know so if you're wearing a mask in berries electively in in summer of 2022 you're a freak first of all and second of all i feel like that means you you could be the kind of person who forgot yeah it go it really is a [redacted address] at that point if you if you feel the need to wear a mask in the shower just uh shower at your house like if it's really that big of a deal if you're really that much of a germaphobe or whatever you're gonna take the mask off once the water hits your face i'm gonna guess and you know we don't know that maybe not what if he kept it on what if he kept it on the whole shower like gets out and dries off and just keeps that's that's a cool idea he rings his rings his mask out like a wet rag so right before we we started recording i got a text message from a friend of the show and uh

future husband uh jeff hendrickson he was like bro we gotta talk and i'm like oh shit what did i do and he's like about chris lee he like he like dragged it out over like three text messages you know um and i was like damn did i do something to jeff what did i do did i fuck something up hey bro we really gotta talk i'm like damn uh and and i was like yeah bro they're doing 30 years and he was like you know what we knew this day would come We did because we knew my favorite family, Atlanta's own closeted hero, Chris Chrisley. Did you know this day would come? How did you know? We knew this day would come because there's no – I've watched countless hours of this program, and I've never seen how he makes money to afford this lavish lifestyle that he's living. Sure, but that's every show on Bravo. But you know how he got popped, though, is because his download dick piece. Fucking turned him in. No way. That's right. That's right. He, like everyone in the world kind of knew he was. To celebrate, to celebrate pride. To celebrate pride. His little down low, little thang, thang. Went to the feds and said, Chrisley been skimming. He ain't been paying Uncle Sam. And now Chrisley's doing a cool 30. And his wife's doing a cool 30. And he's probably happy they're in different prisons. Worth it. I want to know what you got to do. Because there's a lot of people who. A little tax evasion, a little fudge in the books, a little this, a little that. And it's usually like, hey, you've got to kind of pay a little thing. Maybe you go on probation if it goes bad, or you've got to do a little George Carlin. Wesley Snipes thing, pay it off kind of thing. You don't really hear about people getting 30 years, and this is a guy who's what, in his 50s, mid-50s? Yeah, he's probably in his 50s. He looks 27 because of the plastic surgery, but he's probably, you know, he'll maybe die in jail because of tax evasion, which is... An insane thought. There's some wire frauds. Who knows? I'm sure the – Oh, yeah. He was like fudging bank records, which is like a federal offense. Yeah, yeah. I think he really messed up bad. But it's sad to see because it's a great program. Hopefully one of the fine networks does pick it up for syndication. He's able to kind of pay off some of his bills with those checks. That's what I'm hoping. Maybe that was his business strategy is like I'll just kind of like lie about my income.

Get famous, and then eventually I'll be able to make enough money to pay it all off. But, I mean, there's always a rat, isn't there? If you're going to fuck guys on the down low, you've got to take care of them. Yeah, and, I mean, that's what happened. Maybe the rent check for his side piece got bounced. You know what I mean? His Dodge Charger payment didn't go through. They said they came to repo the charger and he was like, oh, no, not this time. The guy who came to get a quote on redoing my closet said that the MasterCard was declined on the deposit. It's a funny thing that happened during Pride because I also – I got this email that I tweeted about from – I believe it's Uber Eats and it says the subject was eat with pride. Bottom friendly menu with a peach emoji was the subject line of this email. Bottom friendly menu. Yes. And then all the suggestions Andrew's pointed out were sushi. I mean, I always eat sushi when I plan to, you know. Take it. Yeah. Have intercourse after a meal. One of Jason's least favorite things to do. You have to have a nice sushi meal. If I'm going to munch before I munch, that would be sushi. Not one from the twisted sugar fish family either. That will leave you messy down there in the peach emoji. It's got to be clean and traditional. Okay. None of that fake wasabi shit. So you don't want to hit, you're not hitting Nobu, you're hitting. Call that a ring stinger. You're hitting some place in the valley in a strip mall that's like known for its traditionalness. Usually my partner will like it when it's a cucumber wrap. I want to know, yeah, I just, I think. Just keeps things a little. The question I'm asking Jason is what do you eat before you bottom? So if you could just be really clear with me of what you eat before you bottom. It is sushi. And I said specifically if we can do the. the cucumber skin wrap instead of rice. Okay. That is, that is bonus points. I'll be able to last three to four minutes longer, usually in those situations. Okay. And, you know, and also, you know, three to four hours beforehand, if you could crack a Ken euphoric and kind of get that in your system. Okay. So, so for pride, we'll get a nice smooth landing. So for pride, we're giving a, we're giving TJ's bottoming tips away. And one is get the wrap and cucumber and a Ken euphoric.

Four hours, approximately four hours before you're going to do the deed. Can you believe this is a free podcast, Chris? This is honestly paywalled content, and I can't believe we give away for free, but that's the kind of guys we are over here at How Long Gone. We do have a guest today, but I just wanted to make sure, Jason, just before we introduce him, are you ready to come to New York to tackle the Tribeca Film Festival on Sunday? Are you feeling prepped? I'm actually going to go to Basel. I'll be off to Switzerland tomorrow instead. Our new guest inspired me to change our plans, so you will have to do How Long Gone Live. Okay. Solo. Okay. I mean, look, I could probably, I could Bill Burrett. I could white knuckle Bill Burrett if I have to. I didn't know you could kind of afford a flight from LA to Switzerland. I'll just be kind of going in for some of the fairs and just. Things like that. I have a few lunches set up. Our guest today is Alexander Shulin. He runs a gallery in Tribeca called Lomex, and it is popping. He shows art on a third floor, which is ballsy, I would say. They do have an elevator, if you were wondering, so you don't have to take it. You don't have to drag your tabby boots up the stairs. You can just kind of get in and push three. I was more concerned of some of the larger format sculptures, not just like walking yourself back up the stairs. No, that's something to be concerned about, Jason. Good thoughts. So let's find out what it's like to run a hot gallery downtown, what the parties are like, how much you got to tip the doorman for all the elevator service. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts.

Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down.

The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Alex, do you have a doorman at home and not at the gallery? No, neither. You're a doorman for you. No doorman. No doorman at the moment. It's actually a door person. How do you get your essence packages? I miss a lot of them, but when they show up, it's like I order three or four, and then I get one. So that's the scenario. I see. I see. Okay. So what you do is you order as many packages as you can, and I hope you get a few, and you just kind of call it even. Yeah, the other ones, I just lose it. I'm an art dealer. I have a lot of money, so it's fine. Whatever happens. You're used to eating costs for the name of art. You're not going to write it off. It's business expense. It's sole proprietor business. So, you know, whatever happens, it's fine. You just write everything off. No, that's what – well, we were just talking about tax evasion actually. Are you familiar with – Speaking of running an art gallery, we were just talking about tax evasion. We were talking about hiding money in like kind of – but no, have you heard of – Chris Lee knows best. Are you familiar with that reality show? I'm not. I'm not sorry. That's a bold-faced lie. He knows what it is. Yeah, you can pretend. Okay, so it's a show about a married Southern man and his wife, and they have a family, and he's clearly, clearly gay, and they never talk about it. But it's like a longstanding reality show. Obviously, hijinks ensues, et cetera. He just got popped for tax evasion and wire fraud. They're saying he's going to do 30 years because his down-low boyfriend called the feds on him.

And we'd like a statement from you, Alexander, about that. Do you think your down-low boyfriend would call the feds on you, or do you think you guys are cool? I mean, as long as I keep sending the wires on time, I think we're cool. Exactly. Exactly. You get it, bro. See, Alexander gets it. Alexander gets it. And that's exactly what Jason said. You can't stop payment on the check if you're doing it. Yeah, then you're in trouble. Yeah, if you're doing dirt, you can't do that. Yeah, Alex, you're not doing any dirt, though. I feel like you keep the gallery nose clean, right? I'm trying to. I'm trying to. I mean, the business is a dirty business, but I'm trying to keep it clean over here. What are some of the dirty parts about the business? Because Chris is more of an expert in the New York art world. He wouldn't say that himself. Especially compared to me, I'm just a fan of street art. Jason, we talk about this a lot. He doesn't want to get robbed, so he doesn't speak of it, but he does have a nice kind of... port side storage locker full of original shepherd fairies he's kind of collected over the years yeah i have to kind of move them around to different locations because people kind of get start sniffing around one of those little action figures called that like they make cause that kind of stuff you have a big collection of those no well that one is in my foyer of course that's the point but he keeps his he keeps his kind of stuff like that yeah he keeps his funko pops like above the podcasting station but the no the cause dolls are prominently displayed he likes the six footers kind of like his bong Yeah, the six-footer, and the six-footer is a real king who can afford to kind of drill a hole in them to fuck. Try doing that with one of your little board eights, you know? You can't fuck those things. You can't fuck your NFTs, and that's the number one problem. You ever done some moon rocks and fucked a cause doll? I didn't think so. Yeah, I mean, I think that the art business is notoriously dirty. I've read some books about it, but the dirty part is kind of what... gets me going. Did that attract you to it? Or is that just part of the deal? I've been in the business, I mean, in my own, with my own gallery for about seven years now. I didn't know how dirty it was until about three or four years ago when I started to really get in the cut, you know, but I think that it's dirtiness is a...

more complicated and somewhat clever than people realize. Insofar as a lot of people buy art with the intention of donating it later in life to get a multi-pronged tax write-off, which is something that people don't realize, that art doesn't appreciate in a way like stock, where it's easily legible. So you can invest money and then... basically get massive tax write-offs later in life or for your kids. You can sort of have your friends invent how much money you're going to write off. In some capacity. I mean, when you give it to a museum or something like this. I mean, in the current art market, I don't know if you've read much about this, but people are buying things and selling them in a matter of weeks at the moment. They're treating it fully as like a place to buy and sell. There's absolutely no appreciation for the work itself. I mean, it just depends on what sectors. the market you're in at the moment you know but but i think like if you look at what's been going on in the economy in general and all the kinds of like ridiculous bullshit like with nfts this kind of stuff that's been going on that kind of stuff is happening in the art market too where sure you're seeing young people's work who barely have had a show going up 10 times in value in the matter of four or five months and ending up at auction but that's that hasn't happened in the art world in this way for quite some time, for like maybe 10 years. I mean, I'm sure people that listen to the show have some light understanding of this, but the secondary market is where all the action is in some ways as far as monetarily. I mean, if you want to make very large returns, yes. Yeah, well, I'm kind of a money guy, Alex, so I am looking at returns. Thank you for noticing that. Yeah, I mean, I don't work in that world very much, so I basically just deal with... the artists that i'm i'm showing and then trying to protect them from this kind of thing for the most part to be honest we're at odds with each other of course right it's predators yeah that makes that makes for a great podcast but i think that the um well i you know this it our our experience here on how long gone is a little more music based and i think there's some obviously some similarities and through lines to to how the businesses work um and i i just uh i think is is the the

The discovering the artist and then protecting them from getting poached, how much of that is your life or is the hope that I put you on, you're going to be loyal until it doesn't make sense anymore approach? You know what I mean? I mean, I would say that it's one of the things that keeps me up at night is like trying to keep the community around me happy with me and everyone to be growing at the same pace. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Other galleries make incursions into the programs that I've built in positive ways and negative ways in my experience. And that's something that is a really challenging thing for a dealer and a place where, honestly, the interests of a dealer and an artist don't always match, which is a really complicated and sort of edgy side of the business. No, no, sure. But I think that that's the whole thing that's so interesting to me. People just decide they want to move on, you know, and there's not there's not much you can do. And, you know, I'm sure there are people at every, you know, it's like anything else. There's levels to it. Right. So there's always somebody with more bread that can offer a more a different experience if you think you're ready for that. And so there so there aren't really any contracts or things like that set in place. It's all just sort of good faith handshake deals. If we make some money together, hopefully we can keep doing it again. And then the argument that I make for it is like from context, you know, so I'm like, oh, we did this together and we're building an aesthetic together. The gallery is good and the other artists are provided in good context. So that's a motive for I've had people been offered exhibitions with galleries much wealthier and up the food chain, so to speak, than mine. But they will say no because they want to keep. the environment and the collecting base of their, you know, of their work. And like they like the aesthetics of that. But as I said, but there are no contracts generally. If someone gives you a contract in our world, there's something weird going on. If it's from a gallery to an artist. So it's not like the music industry. In music, in my experience, though, there's not, I mean, I, as a manager, I never had a contract. I think that like.

We don't have a contract with our booking agent. I think you have a contract with the label specifically, but everybody else is kind of a little bit of a good faith thing. But what the beauty of a lot of businesses is the sunset clause. That's the best part where you make money for a certain amount of time after the relationship ends with stuff that you set up, which if that was introduced to the art market, we would have a big problem on our hands. Yeah, people are trying to do that, but it's not going to happen. Are they really? There are a lot of companies that are trying to use digital technology to build in resale royalty rights into art sales, but I think the ideas are enforceable and impossible. But it's just like that's the thing that people have been talking about a lot. Once you see the whole NFT blockchain shit and once this sells, then the person automatically gets their percentage. That's got to seem enticing to somebody who's making physical art, right? It is. I mean, people have approached me with this idea. But how do you police it? How do you organize it? And it's also deeply lame. Yeah. Yeah, because I just think that we, unfortunately, hate NFTs and crypto. And I feel like the pressure, I'm sure there was a period where there was a lot of pressure on you, or at least there was a lot of discussion around. throwing your hat into the ring, and you resisted? Yeah, I mean, people ask me insanely stupid questions about NFTs constantly in the gallery, and I just can't. You mean like someone walks in and they're asking? Yeah. Really? Well, I need to find this one email. They don't even say NFTs correctly. They're like, can you tell me about TFNs and what it could be for the gallery? I'm just like, I'm not answering. You tell me what TFNs can do for me. NTS. Oh, that's good. Antiques collector group that I'm a member of asking me to investigate the possibility of antique NTSs. Might you know a firm that could create NTSs that I could connect with on this potential project? This is like the kind of stuff that I've been getting nonstop. Jesus Christ, man. I have a drink every time anybody asks. And this is a guy who runs a...

very cool gallery in New York City. This is not like a Newport Beach. No. Yeah. This isn't glass art. My point is imagine what a lame gallerist has to hear all the time, you know? So Alex, so we were talking about, you know, kind of the weird, maybe not so much the dirty side of it, but how prices for things can just be whatever they are, you know? Yeah. Which is scary and exciting. When you're working with an artist for one of your gallery shows, what is your style of price dance? I mean, it's funny. There's a perception that in the art world you can just make up any price, which you definitely sort of can. Of course you. I mean, yeah, you really can. But there are some metrics that people use. which is like their peers basically to figure out how things are priced. Right. And then there are, there are like sort of nebulous equations that people use relative to size, which I also thought was kind of perverted because art isn't really like a grocery store. You mean size, size of the size of the actual works itself, like work itself. And people use that kind of metric a little bit, which is a little galleries will have. sort of what they would say is like their starter price yeah you know for an artwork yeah and then you scale it according to how big or small the work is and then there are these kind of like vague metrics of what other shows that people are in If there are museums, who owns it, how much people want it, that will affect the price. Yeah, so it's just kind of a combo of all these different factors, but it's a little – it's not a science. It's an art, no pun intended. No, you kind of jumble it all up and then just sort of pull it out of your ass in comparison to all these things, but it's sort of – it is like – There is some reason to it, even if it's sort of intuitive. Yeah, but I think that that's the whole thing about being an expert, you know what I mean? Or at least like deeply understanding what's going on is that it's like you have to have something to base it on, even though it's a little bit up in the air, you know? Or I've had people, it's funny, I was selling a painting a couple months ago and I had two people come in and be like, dude, this is insanely low. And then someone else would be like, that price is ridiculous. So there's not like...

That kind of proves our point then, that it's a little bit of like, yeah, there's some data that goes into this, but also it's a little bit of a coin flip. Yeah. I mean, the place that you really see the issue is when people start making stuff too expensive because that's when you get artists become endangered and other galleries become endangered. A gallery might join in on the market of young artists, and the market's really hot, so they know they can basically get whatever they want for it. So they make it crazy expensive. And maybe it works for one show. But then afterwards, you can't really lower prices. It seems like really unacceptable to do that. Lowering prices is, yeah, I mean, that's like. So you can end someone's career. Like, very quickly. Like, as soon as they're hot, it's over. Well, yeah, I mean, you can, you know, there's cases where some young artists as a show, the paintings are $20,000. They go to a really insane gallery, they're $80,000, and then they can't lower them afterwards, and the market passes out. Yeah, I see what you mean. Then the artist has to go do something else. Yeah, they have to, yeah, they got to start cleaning your floors. So what's the personal collection looking like? You know, because I read somewhere that there's, who said this? I think it was in How to Spend It. Someone was giving the advice that, like, you know, you should either receive or purchase, you know, a piece from every show that you do. Yeah. I mean, I unfortunately haven't really been able to do that because I can't afford it, even though I think, but that's definitely true. Like that's what people say is like the IRA for. Art Dior is you buy your own artist's work. The presumption there is also that they're going to leave you and then you're going to sell it when it's worth a lot of money later on. Yeah. A lot of things, a lot of things have to happen for that to work out. Yeah. And it's expensive, you know, even if it's 50% off, it's expensive to do that. So I always, I ran the most, for most of my time, I ran my gallery alone. Now I have staff, but. I was always at a pretty thin margin, so I couldn't really afford to do that, which is unfortunate. But now I have been doing it a little bit. Big Daddy's staffed up. So what are we talking about? How many gallery girls we got in there? I just have two people working with me now. Gallery people, Chris. I'm sorry, I apologize. Have you ever considered stealing any of your artist's work without them seeing it? There's other ways to kind of obtain the work. A little Picasso doodle on a napkin after a while, you know? I have four CubeSmart storage units.

on exterior street. And if you guys want to steal some stuff, it would help me out. Good to know. I appreciate it. I want the rest of this podcast to be us plotting crimes where we all make money and insurance pays for it. I'm big into, because it's a, you know, in New York, it's a classic. Everywhere, I guess. It's a restaurant scam. You know what I mean? Oh, we had a kitchen fire. Oops. And now we received a substantial sum of money. We're able to open a new location. A little Italian lightning. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure that could happen in the art world. You know what I mean? Oh, no. Our Hamptons location burned down. What are we going to do? How much were your art pieces worth? Yeah, as long as it's not classed as an act of God, we're good. We don't believe in God and how long gone, so that's kind of impossible. That would be literally impossible. I know that you obviously started an art gallery because you love art yourself, but it is a business and you have to become a business person to run that gallery. Something I was having a little bit of a stoner thought yesterday about. Uh-oh. have, let's say, generational wealth. I am also interested in those people. I bet you are. As a person who runs an art gallery in New York City, it's something that you could be I mean, it's not an obsession, but you kind of have to have a little bit of a spidey sense. It was having me think of roundabout ways or questions to figure out if somebody has some general race generational wealth behind them. And one that I've heard Chris use before that I just kind of noticed thanks to THC was like, if you're, if you're talking to somebody and you're like, Oh, you guys like you, how long gone you guys like tennis and stuff like that? Uh, you know, I play tennis too. And then Chris will be like, Oh, did you grow up playing tennis? That's right. And that's, you know, questions like that where, because you can tell, but when they answer that question, there's a little bit of a sigh or like a little bit of uncomfortable, like,

Horseback riding I think is better than tennis for this. Horseback riding. Yeah, you're right. Okay, so I wanted to ask you guys, two experts in the field, what are some other examples of that? So horseback riding. So horseback riding is good. And then they say we have a few. How many horses do you have? Yeah, that's good. I like that. How many horses do you have? And then as soon as they say that number is, you know. That's when you just hear the champagne in the back pop. There's no details needed. I think that that's also a good one. When I found out when I was much younger what family office meant. Yes, exactly. Please explain to us pours, guys. Family office means that there's a significant amount of wealth that's being managed by a... group that is paid for by the family and they work internally okay is that that's a that's a fair description right alex family office is like art yours that's your viagra hard as a rock when you hear a family office Then I'm like, I'm getting paid. It's just going to work out in this scenario. Yeah, yeah. It's not – it's like – it just means – I literally heard a guy walking down the street today on his Apple AirPod Pros. He, no exaggeration, had the Wall Street Journal under his arm, and I heard him utter, it's a 30-person family office. And I almost broke my neck turning around. I'm like, 30 fucking people? 30 people? How much money are you fucking managing? You're willing to risk it all. Yeah, I mean that's a significant amount of money. But horses, family, office, I mean, there's many other. Tennis is a good one, though, Jason. Well, not so much the do you play, but it's a question that I've heard asked to me of like, oh, did you grow up playing or did you just pick it up? And then if I say, oh, I just started playing in my adult life, they kind of do a little like, oh. That's cute. Okay, good for you.

Yeah, good for you. Do you play any tennis or golf? What are you doing over there, Alex? I'm at the moment playing no sports, unfortunately. No exercise happening over here. You're not an exerciser at all? I've gone through periods, but at the moment I've been too stressed out, so I'm not exercising. No better time to exercise, Alexander. What's going on? Maybe this summer. I run this summer. Okay, okay. Why is the stress level so high right now, Shulin? Come on. The art market has had a really relentless schedule since COVID. People are trying to make as much money and do as many shows as possible. The pressure is insane. You're saying since we've returned to being able to go to openings and fairs and shit, the market has returned at a serious clip. It's hard to keep up. Also, the travel schedule is insane. I'm actually sitting out on some of this stuff right now because I just did too many projects in New York. What's number one for you? I've been to a lot of these little fairs. To me, it seems like a lot of guys in on-running shoes and blazers. Yeah, it is. But I would love to hear kind of – what's number – if I'm going to one – I mean, if I'm going to be savage about this, just for the record, almost all regional or provincial art fairs are scams. Okay. They are basically – Damn, he's going savage mode. They are like – they're done for the vanity of the galleries for the most part, you know, unless – The major art fairs are the places where people are really doing business. You know, the second and third tier accessories to those art fairs, if they're not in a major location, are generally, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not trying to go. Look, I'm with you, Brian, trying to go to a tent on the beach to look at somebody's fucking home paintings. I'm with you. And, you know, I think that there is, you know, the other problem is if you're not going to the preview. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's over. What's the point? And not that I'm in the market necessarily, but the preview is where all the action is. It's like 95% of my experience in the first hour and then it's done. So you're saying, so this shit lasts three or four days. People are spending millions of dollars. They're flying from all over the world. Everything's sold in the first hour of the preview that's worth selling. The first hour is like what everyone's geared up for. You know what I mean? And then stuff will happen through the end of the first day, maybe the second day, but it's really first hour, first hour and a half. I mean, it was more intense.

Before COVID, because then they didn't have timed entry and all this kind of stuff. And it straight up would be in, like, Miami. Everyone would run. Like a BTS show you're trying to get to the front. Like a Black Friday sale at Best Buy. Yeah, yeah. Damn, you're telling me that, damn, that's dark that all these fucking Europeans are sprinting. That's why they wear the shoes. Maybe not at a full pace, but they're hobbling over. They have so much gout, they're only able to hobble, but they're going to get there. They're moving with a sense of urgency. Yeah, they're moving with a sense of urgency. emergency this this 100th Basquiat is not going to sell itself yeah I mean I mean also this is in the era before like all sales were being I mean not all sales but a lot of sales were being done on pdfs I think it was even more the case that it's like you know you the the galrus is in their domain and there's everyone in there fighting around them for the access now it's different because the internet is changed a lot of the structures through this kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, if you're really copping, I text you, you send me the PDF, and I tell you I want it. Yeah, you're good. And you know what? Let's get into the nitty-gritty here, because this is something I've actually wondered. If I'm buying something of note that's not, let's say, under a million. Okay, let's say under a million. I'm a new collector. Boring. I'm a new collector. My uncle has just died. I say, Alex, I want this piece. You say, Chris, it's yours. When and how much money do I have to wire you to secure this piece and then eventually get it when the show closes? Okay, so this is something that a lot of people don't know about. That's a really big, complicated part of the art world is you don't have to send me any money. I don't like that for you. I don't like that for me either, historically. Okay. So it's a fully – going back to good faith, it's a fully good faith situation. Yeah, I mean I would send you an invoice. You send me your details. Then it's technically a legal document, but it's – It's not. So much like the independent contractors of the world, you send an invoice and you pray that it gets paid within 90 days. Yeah. Honestly, in my experience, it gets paid in 90 days if somebody is worried that someone else is going to buy it. And if it doesn't, it can get paid. I've had people pay me in a year. But they have the work in their home? No, no. I keep it. Which is also unfortunate because sometimes you just store it. I have all this stuff.

you know, store for people because they don't want to pick it up because it's some crazy shit. Yeah, so you're eating costs on the storage space for the large-scale, you know, sculptural installations that you're moving. Of course, all that video work is taking up a lot of space in the storage locker. And if something happens to it while it's in your care, then that's your fault and they can just not pay you. Yeah. So it's win-win-win for them. I haven't had that happen, but I don't even know what would happen. That's it. Nightmare. Basically, you're living in a constant state of money being owed to you. Yeah. Okay. That's been my primary experience in my life since I've been here. So that is a point of stress for you then, I would imagine. That's the main source of stress for me and my life. We're all, I mean, basically, if you don't work for a major corporation, you're kind of constantly owed money. It's just at different scales. But I think that in this particular instance, it feels completely lawless. and there's no checks and balances. It's a little bit of like a, hey, I sent you that thing, and you've got to send me the money, right, bro? Absolutely. There's not anything more serious going on than that. Which does seem problematic, but again, like you said, if somebody wants something that bad because it's hot, then they're going to pay you. So it's a funny thing to have to kind of hinge on. I mean, there are cases where if you send someone an invoice and they don't pay you, you can sue them, but it's almost never done. I don't think it ever works either. And it's you going up against somebody who can afford to buy a million-dollar painting. With their family office. His legal team. Yeah, with their family office. The family office's legal team versus your ass, which is not going to be so good. I would also like to discuss, just while we have you, the art of the opening. What are the elements? Because we need a few celebrities, obviously. We need a champagne. What temperature is the Charles Shaw at? I don't like it too warm. I don't like it too cold. Yeah, exactly. So we've got to have the right champagne. We've got to have, of course, the beautiful mix of Upper East Side, rich guys, hot chicks, a few celebrities, some art handlers. I would say a sprinkling of skateboarders because you are in Tribeca, of course, downtown. What is the ratio that works and what is the time?

time that works? You know what I mean? What is the best window? Is it six to nine? Is it seven to nine? What really works as far as making sales? When I started my gallery, it was in a four-floor walk-up in a little apartment. That period, the opening was more like eight to Whenever. Okay, sure. You strike me as an eight to whenever kind of guy, which is why I like you. But now that I'm in Tribeca and I have a space that is not saddled with tons of debt in the same way, it's six to nine. Tribeca is not a super late part of town. No. So I say six to eight and then I keep it open, but then we go somewhere else. But I've almost never sold an artwork at an opening, which is an interesting thing. Really? And I experience collectors don't come to them. No, it's only people that want free champagne and it's a hangout. And I mean, what do you think the attraction is? Was it cheap? I mean, the big spaces? It's not cheap anymore. I got my space for cheap because I negotiated right in the middle of COVID when everybody thought that the world was going to hell. Although we're like Trump bucks to get, get the space. So it was, it was chill. Trump bucks. But now it's mad expensive. I think it's because galleries. Collectors are not very creative. They don't want to walk very far. Yeah, that's right. So if it's across the street, maybe they'll go in. I like that. I like that that's the reason. Oh, price, no, doesn't matter. Spaces don't matter. I just got to be as close to other people as possible because these whales got to shuffle across the street. I don't want to walk as far. They'd taken the six uptown for me. You know what I mean? I mean, straight up, I would have people go to my old space because there was a walk-up, and they would just ring the doorbell, and they'd open the door, and then they'd be like, nope. Just close the door and never return? Yeah. Damn, bro, that's tough. Speaking of whales, do you ever, you know, if you have, like, a big fish on the line, going to buy something, spend some money at the gallery, Have you ever kind of been put through the test of, like, a hard night of partying, of, like, let's prove? Absolutely. Okay. Okay. All right. Walk us through one. Obviously, we don't need to name names if you don't want to. Let's say, which Cipriani did you start at? Okay. I'm going to give you – I'm trying to sound if I'm going to tell this story. No, I'm not. Okay. So I had a client who I will keep nameless, and I'll try to obscure some of the details of this.

who I met at an art fair. Again, I'm not going to specify which one who I got along with them really well. And we went out drinking. And at some point I realized that, you know, they were just starting to be really supportive of my project. With the more drinks that they had, they were getting more and more enthusiastic about the ideas that I was proposing to them. Sure. And then the night concluded with my not being allowed on the plane back to New York the next day. You're saying you were too intoxicated and Delta said not tonight. I don't know if it was necessarily intoxicated. I was just irate and really ready to get out of the art fair. And there was a lot of people trying to exit at the same time, and I was not having it. I was like, I need to get out of here. I'm a dirty human being, and this has been terrible. It's been a lucrative but terrible experience for my soul. You were kept up all night, and then you went straight to the airport. I feel like you're – I don't want to guess, but I feel like you're a guy who stayed up all night and gone to the airport more than once. Maybe, maybe not. And you're talking to guys that have done that themselves. It takes one to know one. Yeah, yeah. This is a safe space, Alexander. I, too, have been not let on a Delta flight due to, quote, unquote, a smell that was coming from me. It's a humbling experience. That is a humbling experience. But the feeling, I've done that only a couple times, even though I was, I mean, I partied to the point where I'm now sober, so that tells you enough. I did that only a couple times, and for some reason, it just felt so dark to me that I could resist doing it. I only did it once or twice. I was like, I can't ever do this again. I just can't do it. Those years are mostly past me now, so that's a good thing. But the problem is when somebody's dangling a little carrot of cash, it's a little easier to keep it going. The cash is the big difference. I'm shutting Cipriani down. Then we're going to another spot. It's nothing for me. I've had to do poppers in an airplane terminal before, guys.

You guys sound like a couple of pussies right now. Is that because you were being plied for bottoming, or is that because you were talking money? It was a top promoter. This was very, very early on in my career. It was my first art fair. It was kind of a hard orientation about some of the mechanics of the art world. You have quite a way with words. A hard orientation. You were hazed like you were joining a fraternity at the University of Alabama. Yeah, I get it. It was just a little bit better dressed, a little bit nicer. At another point in the early stages of my career, I attempted to take a cab back to my apartment and then was reminded by other people that I was actually in a different country. I was like, I need to get the fuck out of here. And they're like, you're not in New York right now, man. You're in Switzerland. Yeah, you know, I've never been. Pulling out your MetroCard. Yeah, yeah. I've never been to Switzerland. It sounds pretty great. Like, what are the. It seems like paradise. Am I wrong? I think you're pretty wrong. Okay. Okay. But there's a lot of – Isn't Basel coming up soon? It's next week, yeah. It's next week, right? Are you going – you're not going? I'm not going this year, but I have gone for many years. I'm not going this year. But our friend, another friend of ours, Bran, we were joking about the intro. She's in the watch world, so she just went there. Basically, it's one of those things. It's like my Australian friends. They tell me it sucks there, and then I see the pictures while they're there, and it looks like fucking paradise. So I just need to understand what's so bad about it. I mean, first off, you apply like three times the price of anything. Everything. And you don't realize that you're spending that much money because it has this weird CHF thing attached to everything. So you think, oh, $25 for a drink, that's expensive, but that's not. That's, you know, that's, yeah, it could be worse. And then you look at the exchange. Okay. So they're charging, they're charging more than butter in its heyday for a vodka soda over there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's not, that's not. Also, there's nowhere to stay. Okay. I had one year I went and I'm traumatized now with Airbnbs. I'm just, I can't. Fuck, fuck Airbnb. We only stay in hotels. Yeah, fuck Airbnb. But I booked myself an Airbnb. And then the day before the person canceled the reservation. So I was fucked.

And everybody, there's like no hotels and no Airbnbs during Basel if you don't book it once before in my experience. So I had to stay in the suburbs in a house that was shared with a family. And the people, the artists and I had to sleep in the children's room with bunk beds. And there was like the kids' toys everywhere. And, you know, this like four-year-old Swiss kid waking me up. in the morning before I went to the art fair and I had to take a commuter train an hour. Oh my God. And my, and my, our, our share of room was $800 a night. Okay. That's not great. I mean, is the food good? No. Okay. It's a lot of, I mean, if you have, if you have infinite money, you can, you can have a passable European nebulous meal of cheese and sausages. But if you, So if you have infinite money, the highest level you can achieve is passable? You can get like a pretty good meal. I'm not just talking about food. I'm just talking about the entire experience. No, I mean, if you stay at the Three Kings Hotel, it's fire. You have a great experience. Of course. It's like anything else. If you're rich, it's great. And if you're not, it's just okay. That's like most things in life, I think. Are you a foodie? I kind of am. I mean, it's weird. I grew up. Someone in my family used to write about food, so I grew up really eating a lot of nice food. Like a critic or like a cookbook? Both kind of thing. But now I will just eat anything. I don't give a shit, but I like food. But it's not something that bothers me, bad food. I don't care, really. So you're saying you maybe had too much too soon, and now you just don't care anymore. Yeah, I don't care. Now I want to eat Cheetos. Like you were eating like wild tweezer food as a child? Like what are we talking about? Kind of, yeah. Really? He was having the country pate as a youngster and things like that. I kind of was eating crazy food as a kid. So you said you had some family that were writing about food? My mother writes about food. Oh, and she still does? Not so much as she used to. She used to be a critic. Now she writes book reviews a little bit here and there. But we would go to all kinds of crazy restaurants.

And it was like a gimmick in her articles that she had this six-year-old son who was extremely over the top talent. Oh, that's very cool. She had a little young Sheldon with her. Exactly. Which I guess in retrospect is so unbelievably obnoxious, but at the time I didn't mind. I mean, was this in New York? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. That's pretty cool. If I ever had a child, I would do the same thing. I would want to have this kid eat fucking sea urchin and shit. It would be sick. Were you wearing funny clothes? I kind of was wearing funny clothes. My parents would torment me and put me in a weird sailor's outfit and shit like this. I have a feeling you were Mr. and Mrs. Shulin's. special little man weren't you oh i mean that is that is something that because jason's a big food guy his his palate is very developed but that that came to him on his own accord you know what i mean yeah and i always find it interesting when when people are it's like when you have cool parents and then you have good music taste because they put you on it's like you know that's cheating To be honest, like starting on third. Yeah, it's kind of cheating. I had to get it out the mud. You know, I didn't I didn't have my parents handing me Rolling Stones LPs. You know what I mean? But with with food, I feel like it's funny to be exhausted by the time you're 17. Pallet fatigue before you graduated high school. Yeah. Did you did your mom? Did your mom have to keep her shit to keep her identity secret, though? Correct. She did. She did. Damn, this is cool. And I feel like I would be a tell. That's what I was getting at. How many other food critics have an obnoxious six-year-old in a sailor's outfit? Yeah, and it was part of it. I would love to be sitting across from a six-year-old you with the sports coat on, the bow tie, taking a sip of the Sancerre and sending the bottle back after you smell the cork. Yeah, I'm just spitting it out all over the waiter. I won't be trying this one today. I mean, I don't know. What is the standard for restaurant critics? You're very overweight. I don't know what are the pitfalls of being a restaurant critic. Art dealer maybe is worse for your health. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I mean, I think it's worse for your health in different ways. I think the ways it's worse for an art dealer is more fun.

Personally. I mean, I guess I don't want to pay job. My mom's job was not very well paid, to be honest. No, no, no, definitely not. I would rather be a food critic than an art critic, just straight up. Okay. But I worked as an art critic for a while before I, I mean, worked as a sort of... Generous? Generous term? Generous term. You were paid sometimes. I was remunerated in the... Low three digits. You know, maybe high two digits. Not high two. You know, Art America would pay me $120 for a piece. I don't really understand the economics of this. I feel like if you're a staff writer, you know, it's a different scenario. But a freelance art critic is very hard. Love of the game. Love of the game. We have so many media people and writers on this program, and I dabble in that and have dabbled in it more in my life. And it's... Yeah. There's no money in it. It's actually incredible how little money there is in it. You just have the perks of free food, but you don't get free paintings as an art critic. But in the food criticism world, everyone is so resistant to say anything negative about a restaurant. Is that true? I didn't know that. Yeah, well, I mean, the anonymous critic is pretty rare nowadays. Almost every food critic kind of has a public profile. Yeah. For the most part. There's a few. People are very hesitant to write a negative review about a restaurant because it's so hard to run a business nowadays and the failure rate's so high. It's sort of looked upon as punching down or being cruel to someone you could ruin someone's whole life. Is it the same way in the art world? I mean, it's funny. I saw you have Max Lakin on the podcast a couple weeks ago. Our shining star. I like his reviews. He's like talking to Steve Harvey. He says what he thinks. He's a more honest critic. I think that the state of criticism is in the art world. I mean, now that I'm no longer doing it, it's sort of hard for me to tell. But I personally have a lot of problems with a lot of the early reviews that I wrote because I was so connected socially to everything that I was writing about. But it was really hard for me to say what I thought. Yeah, sure. I was like embedded and cut with the people that I was writing about. So I don't want to like, there's a difference between reviewing, as I think you're saying, it's similar with restaurants, reviewing.

uh a young artist for a show versus like something that's some horrible show in house and worth or something like this you know there's like a different you know so like punching up versus punching down we had this discussion because we had the la times critic on this on the show yeah food not art uh yeah food not art and uh that's kind of jason's whole like approach to life actually but it was just like i don't I don't think we have to be nice because restaurants had a tough time during COVID. Like if something's bad, you got to say it's bad. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that I don't I think that criticism should be more tough. I mean, I've done shows that like I would appreciate even hearing negative things about because it would be helpful for me and helpful for the artists, you know? Yeah. You say that now, Alex. Well, but that's the problem. I mean, I think it's like, I think fandom has got, I mean, this is different obviously, but fandom has got so out of control that everything is just so positive because people don't want to get doxxed for saying like Taylor Swift's guitar was out of tune. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like it's a different level, but like, I think it's just like, it's not worth it for most people. Find a way to make it worth it. I mean, it's interesting. It's like the marvelization of everything, right? Like galleries and artists, they have fans. They don't have. It becomes like an intellectual property, like a franchise. People are, like, excited about what they're engaging in. They're not critical of it. I think that's, like, something you see everywhere. Oh, I hate it. Well, people also just want to say, life is so hard. Just let me have this. And I'm like, no, bro. I'm not going to let you have this. This shit is trash. I mean, also, if you think about historical art galleries, like, it'd be weird as fuck to imagine people wearing merch, like, in the 60s with art galleries names on it, you know, or something like that. That's weird. or even artist names on it. It sounds like people wearing like a Monet t-shirt sounds weird, you know, but now that's pretty common. Yeah, no, you're right. How do you, how do you feel about that? I mean, the merchification of the art world. I mean, it's like this thing of everything becomes a lifestyle brand. You have to associate your identity with the stuff that you consume. Right. That's like, that's like, I think pretty, that's a new, a new amplification of the art world that I think is, I mean, it's kind of interesting for me and my position because it presents like.

I don't know, interesting ways to engage with art that maybe people didn't used to, but then also I think it's problematic for just the culture in general. When are you going to open the Lomex store next to the gallery, Gagosian style? You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know. I need a Basquiat candle. But bands have that too now, right? People make more money off the merch drop than they do off the music. Before Travis Scott was held responsible for killing people, he was... He was, I mean, it would be a million dollars a day. You know, a million dollars. I think somebody told me he did 1.2 at the Madison Square Garden show alone. Harry Styles just did, he did like a Harry's House pop-up in L.A. that was like near our house. And I heard the line was just insane for three days straight. yeah people want these tangible goods man yeah i'm gonna buy a 40 harry styles lp i don't have a record player i'll never open this but like i want to i want to be a part of it and i need to buy this we're getting dangerously close to an nft conversation Don't worry, we won't. I mean, I have a lot of fungible t-shirts in my closet right now. Now, do you subscribe to the, are you an all-black gallerist-type cat when it comes to the gear? 100%. Stage blacks. Only. You're not expressing yourself through clothing and color. No, I mean, I have my structural preference. So what is your go-to? What are your go-tos? I mean, I only wear black clothes. I only own black clothes. It's like a, you know, it's a manifesto I'll take for myself. Does it have a challenging taper on the trouser? It definitely does have a challenging taper. As I've gotten older, I've had to make the taper slightly less challenging because I've noticed that the body has tendencies to expand in certain places that my 21-year-old self. You're not a Yoji Yamamoto girl anymore? The Margiela had to be let out a little bit? Yeah, a little bit. It's been let out a little bit. Are you wearing – is it like a suiting or is it more casual? I find that I'm not a blazers and sneakers kind of guy. I'm not a fan of that. The New Balance sneakers don't exist in my wardrobe. It's not a thing for me. Okay, fuck you. All right, come for me, bitch. I respect that. This is my podcast. This is my podcast. No, I understand. I think in your world, the archetype, the look that I was joking about earlier is truly –

It's crazy how predominant it is. It's actually insane. So for you to eschew that and go murdered out, much like my Escalade, I think that's a smart move. I think that's a smart move for you. I mean, there's also the new Gower's Tenancy, which is the goofy outfit, which I don't know if you've encountered much. Are we talking like a silly Marnie colorful thing? Or just like some insane, really over-the-top, almost borderline equestrian look. I don't know if you've seen this. at art fairs now. There's like experimental Yoji Yamamoto pieces or Rick Owens sort of like Undertaker. Sure. It seems like a lot of these gallerists are either making a lot more money than we think they are or they're spending quite a lot of their income on clothing. They're probably spending something that's not income on their clothing. If you average out the wardrobe cost for a lot of young gallerists, you'd be pretty shocked, I would imagine. And that is a write-off, though, isn't it? Yeah. It's not. It is not. I've looked into it. It is not a write-off, sadly. Are there any cool write-offs that you do get as a gallerist? Basically, all your food. Okay. If you're eating with other, which is pretty, thanks to Trump, you know, 100% write-off for meals, which is kind of... Unethical, but it does exist. We're not concerned with ethics here. Because Tribeca is a known food desert. You've got Nobu, you've got Chow. Unfortunately, Cafe Clementine closed. My go-to Tribeca lunch spot. Excellent sandwiches. What are you doing over there, man? It's tough. If you've been in between Walker... Walker and Corner, Walker and Broadway. There's an excellent 7-Eleven. I don't know if you've been there. That's my main culinary destination. So you're getting a large Fiji and a hot dog at 3 p.m. every day? Pretty much, but replace the Fiji with either a large Diet Coke or maybe a Slurpee, something like this. So you weren't lying when you said Cheetos. How many cigarettes do you smoke a day? I actually don't smoke, which is the one puzzling aspect of my intake.

What flavor is your vape? I don't vape either, but I will drink three or four Diet Cokes in the afternoon. So you're like a hot chick in the 90s. Exactly. This is very cool. I have a Jill Sander wardrobe also. You're wearing head-to-toe black Jill Sander. You're just slurping those Diet Cokes like there's nothing else in life. And I'm getting not just the regular... Hot dog, I'm getting the massive one you have to pay 50 extra cents for that they've had out for a week. You get the full-size sedan. A couple of follow-up questions. Are you a crunchy or a puff Cheetos girl, and do you keep it plain, or are you going flaming hot? I've dabbled with the spicy Cheetos, but as a Jew, it doesn't really suit my constitution. It doesn't make me feel good, so I'm going with crunchy. Yeah. Crunchy original, right? Yeah, the crunchy original. The King's flavor. And a follow-up question. I haven't had a Cheeto. Oh, the Cheeto, it's just pure MSG. It's like a real hit. But the Diet Coke, I recently had a Diet Coke out of the bottle. I got to say, it was hitting a little differently, but I think the real way to drink a Diet Coke is can and straw. It's a big gulp scenario over here for the record. Oh, okay. So you do a Fountain DC. Yeah. How extensive is your Diet Coke addiction? How does it affect your migraines and night terrors and things like that? I mean, I definitely have to have four or five coffees or Diet Cokes a day. So you're able to interchange the coffee and the Diet Coke. Yeah. And are you making just a cup of joe or are you doing a pour over or are you hitting the local Starbucks? I feel like you're a Starbees guy. I'm a Starbucks guy. Green Straw Mafia. Green Straw Mafia represents. Do you have a fucked up Starbucks order? Give me your winter order and your summer order. If the Frappuccino is the constant, which I guess is fucked up. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. That's absolutely right. Yeah. I like the sentence, a Frappuccino is the constant. It's just your North Star. It's always there for you. Yes, that's what's happening. And it tastes yummy. Frappuccino is insane. Insane. The venti Frappuccino is the real mark of psychosis. Yeah, that's right. With whipped cream and caramel, it's 1,200 calories. I'm done for the day. We're in business. I'm done for the day. Can I ask just one more quick question? I don't know if you're in a relationship or if you're dating or not, but if dating, do you kind of –

You know, do you play it cool or do you show this side of yourself? How far into the dates do you let them know? It's like, you know, it may be out at month two, but I'll leave little notes to indicate, you know, some Starburst wrappers around the house. Right, right, right. An empty Cheetos box in the, you know, in a trash can. Start putting out a few signs. Little hints. To cushion the blow. Breadcrumbs so they can't act like they didn't see this coming. No, that's actually something I've never had to consider, like what your partner is going to think about if you... Eat like a street rat. I mean, look, if I'm having pizza night, I'm only doing that alone, Jason. Are you having a supreme pizza night or just a regular one? That's a great question. Usually it's more of an artisanal pie that features just a light burrata and maybe a little bit of basil on top. He's a margarita kind of guy. I'm a margarita guy, but I don't like to do that in front of my partner or even a friend. There's no garlic dipping sauce with the crust in that situation. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, Alex, you've mentioned Trump a few times. You clearly enjoy the cult. The culinary arts of Papa John, based on your tells, as we like to say. I see a trend here, and it's exciting, and it's enticing to me. I mean, you can make other what you would like. I don't know. The fact that you're eating habits... are strictly a rebellion against your upbringing is, is something that I love to see in an adult man and the, I mean, it's the habits of a man child. It's to be particular, right? The eating habits. I mean, I think it's, it's pretty endearing, but I mean, I think that like, I think you need to. You got to rein in a little bit because we're not getting any younger, big dog. No, I'm not. I'm in my mid-30s now, so I got to get it under control. Yeah, you don't strike me as a large lad, though. I feel like you're... No, I'm not. I'm not. You're not yet. You're not yet. Look, I'm a recovering fatty, and I don't wish that on my enemies. But you still got a full head of hair, right? Yeah, I've got a full head of hair, and I'm keeping the waistline the same as it's been. Oh, you're fine. If you got a full head of hair... So that's fine. So you're clearly just going to die from neurotic...

I mean, the counter side for me is I don't eat very much. I just eat really, really badly when I do. Okay, so you eat like shit, but once a day, max. Exactly. Okay, and do you carry around a water bottle that you take little sips from all day? Maybe if there was like a sort of, you know. kool-aid powder scenario in the back pocket i keep the gatorade powder in my messenger bag on my stroll down i just have a handful of it ready to go i just reach in my pocket and throw it in there so what so water drinking is not water isn't really on the menu no wow wow i love it okay i mean jason's on an anti-water thing right now because i'm a big water drinker what are you replacing water with in your diet uh great question i you know i I get the moisture and H2O I need from fruits and vegetables, but I still drink water, but I separate the drinking time versus the not drinking time. I have a glass of water, I drink it, and then that's it. And then I have another glass of water when I'm thirsty. You don't have one of those water bottles with a timer on it that tells you when you have to drink it, so you're pretty far away from that. I'm as far away from that as you could be. I would say he never had one, but he's recovering from that kind of lifestyle, which I'm still deeply, deeply, deeply involved in. And Alex, we're okay with our urine color currently? I don't know if dark yellow. Is that an exception? It's not. It's not. But if you're okay with it, then we're okay with it. That's kind of how this works. If it doesn't hurt, you're fine. Yeah, it's fine. If it doesn't hurt. I mean, dark yellow. Alex, thank you for taking the time to pod with us last minute. We appreciate that, my friend. Yeah, it was fun. We appreciate it. And the gallery, what's up now? What's coming? I'm in between shows, but I'm putting up in two weeks like a kind of really old school New York.

Tons of people, 60-person group show in the gallery. Oh, wow. Summertime kickoff kind of event. Summertime kickoff, yeah. All right, well, and we can find you. I'm sure we can find the gallery on Instagram and Twitter. Yeah, and I'm on Walker Street most days. I'm shopping on Walker Street. It's 7-Eleven slurping out right around the street. The guy with the red mouth from the Slurpee, that's Alex. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you soon, bro. Have a good one. Thank you. Bye-bye.