359. - Gert Jonkers

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts. or watch on YouTube. All right. How long gone? A beautiful Tuesday morning in sunny Los Angeles. Jason, how is it over there in Glendale? Each day more beautiful than the last over here in Glendale, man. a utopian society. Yeah. We, uh, um, we're recovering from last night. We went on to a television screening brought to you powered by the illustrious FX network. Shout out to our friends at FX and, and, uh, also yeah, the bear, uh, coming soon. We saw two episodes, uh, friend of the program. Maddie Matheson is a producer and also has a nice bit part. Um, and, uh, The show is good, bro. I got to say, I go into all things like this being like, this is going to suck, which usually it does, but I was pleasantly surprised. I like the show and I plan to watch it. You latch onto the show, which does a good job at depicting the restaurant industry world. I can't think of any other show or movie that nails it other than Big Night or Ratatouille. My brother was like, Ratatouille did the best job of what it's like in a restaurant, but at the end of the day, it is a cartoon mouse, so we have to have something else to latch on to. Look, I got to give credit where credit is due. And Ratatouille is the Anthony Bourdain of cartoon mouses. Ratatouille did a very good job. Don't sleep on it. I didn't see that film. Thanks for calling it a film. The Bear stars. His name is Jeremy Allen White, I believe, who you might recognize from Shameless. He's the team son on Shameless. As like a hot.

Chef, who after a stint at Noma and other Michelin star tweezer restaurants, he's come back to Chicago to take over his brother's hot dog restaurant. So he's going through it, as you can imagine. But it was good in the music. I mean, I don't want to spoil anything for you, but the first episode, the first thing you hear is new noise by Refused. So if that doesn't set a tone, Jason, I don't know what will. Well, I have one bone to pick with that. It was nice to hear that, but it was only... And it was featured a couple times in the episode. It was only the intro. But it never... The drop never drops. Can I scream? Yeah, I know. The drop never drops. Speaking of the drop never dropping, how bad is the new Beyonce song? Just quickly, just quickly. I swear to God, if these fucking pop stars don't undiscover dance music, we're in for a bleak future, Jason. And I know that as a representative of the dance and EDM community, I need you to comment directly on this. Okay. If you could. On the record. I can do that. On the record. I can do that. This is on the record. Well, number one, pop music and dance music have been intertwined since before we've been born. So this is not anything new. But you know what I mean. Don't do this, Jason. Come on, though. You know there's something going on. I know what you mean. I mean, it's just, you know, the ebbs and the flows. We're about to enter a recession. COVID is over. So people want to party and celebrate. It's a reaction to the kind of... Coding rap, you know, slowed down, reverbed, blah, blah, blah shit. And people just want to dance. Unfortunately, I don't know. I mean, it's nothing new. But why isn't it good? That's fine. I think your thinking is absolutely correct. It is a response to kind of the, like... Well, why isn't popular music good?

It's never good. That's not true. That's the thing. It's been good historically. As I was reminded last night at our screening when I heard the Counting Crows and Wilco in the show, you know what I mean? It reminds you. I just think the through line here is that the Codeine rap phase produced a lot of boring music with no choruses. And it seems like the dance music craze is doing the same thing. For these types of artists, Drake and Beyonce, you know, people who are the largest. Most successful money-making musicians in the world. The music that they make is a product, not really an art form anymore. So it's being decided and chosen on by a bunch of suits at record labels who think this is where the zeitgeist is moving. And then in a year and a half, two years, this wave will peak and then we'll all be riding it. And Beyonce and Drake are the ones who told you about it. That's right. I think they're banking on a vibe shift and an investment in their future as a record label. And I don't know how much art is attached to that. I just think that the... the chorus as a part of a song has been hammered into the brain of people, and they're looking for it. And when you say people, you mean you. No, no, I mean the world in general. If you're a regular-ass person who listens to the radio, that's what music is to you. So when you hear a song without it, I do believe that you notice, but the artist is so big and you're also hardwired to think it's good that you just think it's good without any criticality. Maybe something that you haven't noticed that you are pushing back on is maybe the globalization of popular music and moving away from the... americanization of of stuff well that's i mean sure but all the biggest stars in the world when it comes to music except for bad bunny are american i mean if you look at the charts that's just the facts the global charts i mean i i think that i think that the music industry is putting a lot of money and investment into you know lots of other countries lots of other parts of the world latin america asia and europe are sort of

Like, hey, we're in the driver's seat now kind of thing. The way that Republicans have taken democracy back. Yeah, no, that's probably true. So the Drake album, the Beyonce songs, they're going to do really well in other parts of the world who are not so chorus dependent. Yeah, no, that's true. So this Drake album, I think people, when you listen to the radio in America, it's just like... Taylor Swift type shit. And, you know, just these are the hits. These are the pop hits. This is the Harry Styles song. This is the Bad Bunny song, whatever. And in Europe and other parts of the world, you listen to the radio and you're hearing songs with no choruses. You're hearing six and seven minute dance songs. And that's a part of their culture and it's normal. Whereas in America, we're like, don't bore us, get to the chorus. Well, I guess that makes me a true American. But that Beyonce song, to get back to the point, the Beyonce song isn't good. And there's a bad rap verse. It's rough. We listened to it on the way home last night after we dropped you guys off. We were both like, this is not good. For me, for a Beyonce song, I will gladly take it because I typically don't like Beyonce's dance songs at all because I've always thought that they're dance songs that a lot of people won't be able to easily dance to. They're very fast and spastic and they're songs that are meant to do choreographed dance routines to sure and not songs to like that a normal person can just like go to a club and dance to because it's like 160 bpm like Yeah, no, no. It's like most people are like, I can't catch this. Yeah, but at least I don't know. Those songs felt like they had a point to them. This one doesn't. I mean, I think it's like using a big recognizable sample, like house sample and all that shit. Like, I just want it to hit harder if you're going to make that swing. She should have got. Yeah, so Drake, Beyonce, instead of getting in the lab with these snoozers. let's get in the lab with fucking skrillex and like why why are we beating around the bush if you're gonna do it fucking do it exactly let's bring up the you remember the skrillex rick ross song that is a fucking classic song the thing about skrillex is he understands the assignment the thing about sunny is that he understands the assignment no but uh yeah anyway i i just you know i was

I'm just – the level at which I'm consistently disappointed in music of this size is different than it used to be. You know what I mean? Like this was more rare where like even a Beyonce, you know, like – She put out the visual album or whatever, but there was that crazy song with like the outcast horns on. I'm like, wow, this is really cool. This is really good. It's catchy. It's interesting. She sounds great. And I just think that it's just like those days are over now because everybody is trying to. to be first, to be different, and sometimes different isn't great, Jason, and that's the problem. That aside, I'm sure she made $10 million last night, so who am I to say? We do have a guest today on the program. We're crossing the pond, this time to a different location, beautiful Amsterdam, Jason, to speak with Junkers, who is the co-creator of Fantastic Man. my favorite magazine of all time. Probably he also created the gentle woman, uh, whose editor Penny Martin we had on the show a while back. Uh, they do the happy reader, uh, which is, which is, uh, a partnership, um, with, I believe penguin, uh, about, about books. And, uh, but last but not least, he created, but the triple OG, uh, gay magazine. Is that a gay magazine? Yeah, yeah. No, it's crazy. It's crazy because we like butts too. You know what I mean? And I don't really understand. I think it's funny. Butt Magazine is a classic publication. I remember seeing it on the shelves, and I think that was the first time where you saw a really cool artistic gay rag. Yeah, exactly. It was cool. You're like, oh, this is sick. Exactly. No, it looked like it, and I think that was like a stroke of genius since, again, it's been around forever. But also we found out that Yurt was also a country music singer. is something we discovered last night. So we're going to have to get into that. Which country? I mean, it's a great question because when we put together our How Long Gone by Brooks and Dunn...

covers compilation. We're going to be obviously talking to a big family of artists, but maybe he'd be willing to participate. Yeah, maybe we can pull the boots out of the wardrobe, dust them off, get some honey in his voice. I did not know that he was a country musician and this is... We'll see what that really means. You know what I mean? He's the Holland Luke Combs. There's an umlaut over the U in Luke. Yeah, there's an umlaut. That's the only edit. It's the umlaut. But yeah, let's cross the pond and get into it. I'm sure he's got thoughts about the new Beyoncé as well. Alright, let's give Hirt a zoom. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do all our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more.

So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada.

That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Before we start, could you confirm how to pronounce your name, please, just so we get it correct? Well, I listen to almost every pronunciation in the world. But I mean, correct is Gert. Gert. Okay. I'm not going to be able to put that much sauce on it, if we're being honest. What about the last name, though? The last name is like the area in New York, Yonkers. Yonkers. Okay, that's what I was wondering. Yes. Okay, Jert Yonkers. That's it. It's so fun to say for us guys with boring names. You know what I mean? We've got no sauce on our names. Chris Black is about as boring as it gets. Yeah, but where he lives, he might have a pretty pedestrian name himself, right? I mean, it's a rare name, for sure. Okay. I took a chance and I was wrong. It's very old-fashioned, let's say that. Well, just to our American ears, you know, a name like yours, it could be, you know, it could just be like being named Bob or Michael to us for all we know. You know what I mean? Yeah. I was explaining to Jason, I mean, I was just talking about this workspace looks picturesque. Are you coming to us from Amsterdam or are you on location? Yes. Okay, you're in Amsterdam. This is the Amsterdam office, yes. How many offices we got? I mean, it's pretty much the only one. Okay. I like that. I'm coming to the New York office. Yeah, it's our only office, but you know, that's the one we got. I'm in my Glendale house right now. Nice Pet Shop Boys poster. Thank you. It's a great Pet Shop Boys poster. It's his piece de resistance. He's not much of an art collector, but that's kind of his one thing that he's got. I got more up than you do. You got a blank wall, dumbass. We're still in renovations, so we'll be renovating soon. So I've had to put the collection in storage. And some of it's on loan, of course, to the museums right now. And we love to podcast with you Europeans because we get to start a little earlier. You know what I mean? But right now, are you guys getting like the 20 hours of sun? Yes. So what time are we talking about? When is it really going down? Right now, about 11 or 11.30. 11.30? No, it's amazing. Doesn't that fuck up your rhythm, though? What time are you going to sleep? 11.30. I mean, I'm sure living there your whole life, you get used to it eventually, or maybe not. I mean, it's only a few weeks. Oh, okay. In a while, it's sort of like...

four o'clock in the afternoon and it's not true. So, uh, it's all you can get. I mean, I feel like that does lead people to behave in a wild way. Would you say that's true? No, no. I mean, No. I feel like if the sun's up till 1130, I feel like a lot of partying is happening is all I'm saying. I feel like it leads people to really go crazy. I think it would lead me to go crazy. And if it goes dark at 4 p.m., that's when you start kind of picking up the opiates and listening to some dark mute. You put the Elliott Smith on and you start cutting yourself, you know? A little bit, yeah. A little bit. A little bit. A little bit. A little bit. I mean, are you from Amsterdam? Are you from there originally or no? Not originally, no. here for quite a while but um i mean it's a small country you know so yeah i say i'm from the other side of the country that means an hour drive you're an hour a deep hour-long drive into the holland forest exactly no i'm from the actually i was born in the exact center of the country not not for any particular reason but uh they say it's uh it's so much the exact center that they were all kind of weird suspicious seances going on in the middle of the last century. There are certain right-leaning political figures that are sort of interested in sort of this symbolism of the center of the country, et cetera. Interesting. In terms of pagan government rituals. So it has nothing to do with maybe like the Norwegian, like Carpathian black metal type of thing, and it's more... Okay, a little, okay, not, not. That's pretty, is this something that is like well-researched and thought and discussed, or is it a little bit mythic? It's mythic. Yes. Okay, so we have no proof, but we like it. I mean, there's a little bit of proof. There's some blurry photographs on TMZ. I don't know what your website would be over there. Have you been to the Denver airport before? The Denver airport? No, why would I? How dare you ask me such a question? I apologize. No, it's because obviously it's not the same, but the Denver airport has this whole...

mythology around it, that it's like this weird pagan ritual. There's all these hidden meanings and hidden tunnels, and there's all this stuff that is apparently Satan worshipping. It's a very large airport, sort of in the center of the country. We'll flag that, but then underneath it is supposed to be a New World Order. stronghold for when we kill all the poor people and then the rich elite will be in their bunkers underneath this airport. And then when all the poor people have perished, then we can come back out and take over the world and really party without them. And this is what, QAnon? This is just some regular old government conspiracy theories because the whole airport is decorated with paintings. They kind of took them all down, but there's Freemasonry symbols all over the place and there's these vast murals. hand-drawn oil paintings of skeletons with machine guns stepping on the skulls of children and stuff. It was so crazy that it became a thing people talked about, and then they had to tone it down a little bit because it was getting too hot. But it was pre-QAnon. Great question. Do you guys have a lot of conspiracy theories over there? Yeah, it's growing. It's growing. Getting worse. Jason likes to flirt with conspiracy theories. I'm more of a realist myself, but I think they are fun to flirt with, especially if you keep in mind that most likely they're not true. Well, I mean, is that a question? That is a good question. I like to ask, what if? And then Chris, that kind of question confuses and scares him. I didn't know that, though. I didn't know that. The Denver thing is famous here, so I'm glad we were able to share that with you. I was looking at some of our podcast numbers yesterday, and in Denmark, that's probably the country, the region where our largest fan base following is. We're ranked very highly over there in Denmark.

And I don't really exactly know why. Is Denmark, you know, are they like a silly people? Is their sense of humor like a specific type of way that might latch on to ours? Is there any insight you can offer in them? No, why would I know? You live closer to them than we do. Well, a little bit. A little bit! I think more than a little bit. Okay. It is closer by. I don't know Denmark that well. It's a nice country. I didn't know they were particularly funny. That's what I'm concerned about. We're concerned that maybe they're taking it differently than it's meant to be taken. Maybe. Because they don't strike me as very funny either. Those are your words. Over there, where you are, people are having a lot of fun. There's smiles. And marijuana and dancing and everyone's enjoying life and having a good time. Denmark, maybe a little more sterile and cold, a little more serious. I don't know. That is true. I mean, it sort of, it strikes me whenever I'm in Denmark, it doesn't happen too often, that people speak very loud in public, which the Dutch do as well. You know, they're sort of on the train, they sort of scream. Okay, so that's a through line that Chris will work with. Unfortunately, I am a loud talker, and I feel like you already picked that up, and I appreciate the feedback, and we will take that into consideration as we move forward with the podcast. Maybe that's the only reason they like it is because we're louder than the competition. That could be it. Yeah, no, that's very possible. So I was reading an old little interview with you, and they asked you what the hardest part about being an editor-in-chief is, and you said dressing like an editor-in-chief, which I liked. And I wanted to ask Chris, and maybe he can kind of chime in because I think he sort of fancies himself an EIC whisperer a little bit. And he may already model his wardrobe.

after one so so chris like what what do you think your i want to get your take first and then and then have your kind of peppering his insights i think it's very similar to how the the head of a of a fashion house would dress or a designer would dress it's very simple it's understated it's it's not flashy it's possibly monochromatic with maybe a either a very simple footwear Or a little footwear with flair. You want to have the focus be on the clothes in the magazine, not the clothes on your body. Yes, that's my take. I think that a lot of people's, or at least my favorite example of this is probably, well, a designer version would be Marc Jacobs when he was at Louis Vuitton. clothes for himself that were very simple and understated and perfect, but those were just for Mark, you know what I mean? Which I think is brilliant. But yeah, I think the editor-in-chief, Yurt, is that similar? Well, a little bit. I mean, I think in the case of Mark Jacobs, he was just sort of like closeted, dressed-up person because I'm sure deep inside he wanted to be who he is now. Yeah, that's possible. One day you're like, actually, I'm not this person. I don't agree with you completely because I would, I think in an ideal world, I would dress even more informally. So, and not that I dress particularly formal, but funny you're asking me now because yesterday is when the Milan Fashion Week ended and Paris starts, well, I go tomorrow. So I am actually in the midst of packing my suitcase. Sort of with this weather, it's nice to sort of walk around in a tank top. and short shorts. And you think, is that the right message? So it's a beautiful hot day out. Any other situation, you would just wear shorts and a t-shirt and maybe some Birkenstocks or some light footwear and you're comfortable casual, but then everyone's going to be like, oh, that's the guy from Fantastic Man. Let's see what he's wearing. Just a tank top, huh? I was hoping for something a little bit better. Exactly, a little bit. I mean, and of course you shouldn't.

listen to any of that. Exactly. I do remember having a meeting at Todd's once in Milan and Diego de la Valla, the owner, kind of looked at my shorts, which were basically a boxer shorts or something. And he didn't approve clearly. And you think like, oh, maybe this is a bit awkward. So I don't know. I continue to be sensitive for that kind of looks. I understand. When you live in California, this is something I'm suffering from as a newish resident, is that it's so hot that it feels ridiculous to put on a full look to do anything during the day. So much like you're saying, I'm basically in a five-inch short and a t-shirt or a polo and some sneakers. It's very difficult for that to seep into every part of your life. We went to a premiere last night, and I wore shorts because it was just too hot. I just can't get out of it. But then you go back to New York, and people are still attempting to put on full looks in that kind of weather. Chris, did anybody comment on that? Because I used to, a couple years ago, I would wear shorts to a formal event almost as an act of rebellion and narcissism. Sorry. Nihilistic actions. And people would be like, oh, nice shorts. Like, are people giving you shit for it, or are you able to wear it so well that nobody can really hate on it? In last night, I think I was able to dress up the shorts with my Dries snakeskin loafer, which made people, I think that averts the eye from the quad to the foot. You know what I mean? So it kind of keeps people, you have to do a little mix, but I do think that the, I mean, when I see, I mean, When I look at pictures of Milan, and I know, and I've been there, and I know how hot it is this time of year, I just think it's ridiculous to try to wear all those clothes. To have your pocket watch and your wool vest. It's just crazy. Yeah, the wool jumper, it's kind of crazy to me that it's so illogical, but that's just how people's brains are wired.

Well, at least the audience doesn't wear that anymore. I mean, 15 years ago, people would sort of dress up with pocket squares and blazers and everything. Bring my briefcase to go get the morning coffee. Exactly, exactly. That has nothing in it. Thank God that's over. Thank God that's over. The twisty mustache has bid us adieu, thank God, even at pity. But did you go to pity this year or no? I didn't go to pity. No, but I heard that they're still there. They are still there. And my friend of a show who's Jacob Gallagher, who's the men's desk at the Wall Street Journal. He reported on the fact that like these guys look even more ridiculous than ever because everyone else has gotten more casual and they have maintained their look. And it's just like. Guys, who are you doing this for? But I've been told that a lot of those guys that really dress like that, that really look crazy, they're like regular guys that just have jobs and take the week off to go to pity. That's their hobby. They don't have anything to do with the business. Yeah, I mean, there's people that attach their entire life's identity to the clothing that they wear. And if you take that away from them, then they have nothing. So they're going to keep wearing this. terrible shit, you know? Yeah, no, it's like the Venice Carnival, where people sort of, they're sort of making their crazy dresses for a year, and then they get to wear them for three days. I mean, that's exactly it. It's exciting. It's really funny to watch, but I think that the casualness of L.A. is pretty insane. Like, it kind of... But that's amazing. That's amazing about it. I mean, I remember the first time I went to L.A. in the, I don't know... how long ago, but I was 19, I think. 10, 12 years ago? Kind of. And I didn't bring any shorts because I was, you know, I wore jeans and long sleeve. shirts and blazers and cowboy boots. That was my look more than 12 years ago. I was really surprised to meet people that are in shorts. It was liberating. I agree with you overall, but I think on a day-to-day basis, it becomes uninspiring because there's a little bit of... It's not about the shorts and the t-shirts. It's about the...

choice of what shorts and what t-shirts that you see that can become uninspiring to say the least. It's a gateway to laziness. and you have to stay sharp. So are you still wearing a lot of cowboy boots here? Never, no. No, no, no. That part of you is gone. That was a short face, and that was definitely gone, yeah. I think the cowboy boot, because I'm from the south, I'm from Atlanta originally, I think the cowboy boot is something that is truly timeless, but I have a hard time pulling it off. I don't think I can do it. You're too soft, Chris. You're too soft. No. I might be too soft. And the way that you're shaking your head, Yurt, makes me less confident than ever before. So thank you for that. I don't think anybody can, to be honest. Really? What about women? What about women? Women's better, actually. I think it looks quite good on women. But on men, I don't know. I don't see many examples that convince me. Making a magazine is, we've talked about it so many times on this show, but it's a labor of love. And I think that the... What you guys, specifically with Fantastic Man, are so well known for are the covers and kind of like how iconic they have become. The decision on the cover, I'm guessing, is made at all different times depending on who and what it is. Is that fair to say or is it always kind of the same timeline? I mean, you guys have been talking about media more, so I'm sure you know. But it's funny how many people... don't realize what kind of power you have as a magazine maker. And I don't want to tone it down too much, but people very often say like, oh, it's, you know, it's great that you just think of who you want to put in the magazine and you put them in a magazine. It's like, ah, you know, of course you think. Oh, let's put this person on the cover. And you do that. And it's like, well, that's not really how it works. Brad Pitt, that's a good idea. We should get him on the cover. Well, yeah. You think like, oh, isn't it amazing to put Barack Obama on the cover? Or people say like, oh, why don't you do that? Well, maybe that's not as easy as you think it is. But people really think that we have that power. I like that they have that wonderful imagination. That's something that Chris and I hear.

all the time from friends and stuff, like guests that we should get on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah. Very similar. You guys should have Barack on. He follows you on Twitter. I mean, I'm sure it's not that hard. I think Morrissey and Bjork would be great ideas. If you have their phone number, please let them know. Absolutely. Bob Dylan, be nice. Exactly. No, that's literally what it is. You're like, yeah, man, I couldn't agree with you more, but that's not really how it works. We chose a life of art. of the arts and media and the rest of the world when we sit down at the Thanksgiving dinner table or whatever your version of that is over there. I don't understand. You know, we have to hear an earful of it, unfortunately. I really do. It's a small price to pay. You guys don't necessarily have to play the celebrity game. You only have to play it if you want to play it, which I think is a nice place to be. Where Conde Nast, Hearst, they... If it ain't a celebrity, like, they got problems. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I will buy a Fantastic Man magazine even if the person on the cover, I've never even heard of them before because you know that they're in there for a reason and they're cool and interesting versus, like you said, any Condé Nast thing. No shade. That sort of cover game is quite suffocating because, yes, you know, I guess every magazine maker... looks at the moment Harry Styles was on the cover of Vogue, because it's like the first man ever in a dress on the cover of Vogue. So that has a life of maybe two weeks or so. I would say less, to be honest. Yeah, being generous on the high end, yeah. I'm being generous, yeah. And that must be elusive, because of course... These are sort of like well-planned in their own way. Oh, for sure, yeah. This is like perfect timing, and that is a perfect cover for this moment. Yeah, very, very exhausting. But also, once you have your first big celebrity on the cover, I don't know if this is something that you've experienced, but then does that sort of, on the downside, you have leveled up, and you're like, okay, we have to keep getting this level of talent on the cover.

Or better, ideally, so there's some pressure there of not getting any less popular famous people. But then it's also, you're able to use that as a stepping stone to get the bigger names. Like, see, I got Beyonce on the cover last month. If you think you're bigger than Beyonce, then you don't have to be on the cover. So you get a little, it kind of goes both ways. I mean, it's funny, but the very first issue of Fantastic Man, which is, what, 18 years ago now or so, I think, 17? We had Rupert Everett on the cover. the actor. And then I remember a publicist calling me and said like, oh, and we have an idea for your next cover, Mariah Carey. And we said, well, interesting. I think she's amazing. But, you know, the second issue of Fantastic Man, Mariah Carey on the cover is a bit confusing. And then the publisher said, well, we'll call it Fantastic Woman then. Yeah, okay, yeah. You know what? You just do this. You just do this. I'm good. We'll sit back. Yeah, at the beginning stages, you have a vision that you want to... stick with and a path that you're going down and Mariah Carey is going to fuck that up. But now you would have Mariah Carey on the cover, I'm assuming, right? Maybe, maybe, yeah. That's a soft yes. I would entertain that idea a little bit longer now. That's a soft yes. We're moving that into a soft no now. I feel like you guys have done an interesting thing too as far as making money as a magazine. Because it's like selling magazines, that's one thing you can do, but I think the rest of it, like the Happy Reader is really interesting. Taking on those projects, and being able to work with advertisers in a more meaningful way. I think you've done that with Gentlewoman as well. It's like that stuff is a real model kind of moving forward. And is that just like natural to you? Did it make the most sense? I mean, I'm not sure if it's the perfect financial model, to be honest. I mean, it works for us, but it's not like we're... I'm not flying to my own villa in Corsica. That's what you're saying. No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying more that I think we see a lot of bigger brands, bigger magazine conglomerates. It's conferences and events and that whole thing, which feels a little bit like...

what am I paying for? Like, am I really going to learn anything here? Whereas I think you guys do stuff that just, it feels more authentic to both parties is what I mean. I mean, if it doesn't feel right, then it's maybe better not to do it, even though, you know, financially for, for the, for five seconds, it can sound attractive. No, of course, of course. Making magazines only is quite a. Probably quite a challenge. That's why I write a newsletter and we do events sometimes, but also because we think they're probably nice to attend and not some sort of cynical situation. Do you assign a financial goal to that on the year's income? Or is it just like if it works out, it works out? Yeah, if it works out, it works out. I think we can make the magazines with advertisement we have. But, you know, I mean, we've had a couple of funny years behind us, of course, where, of course, at the beginning of the pandemic. We were convinced that advertising was over. I mean, why would anybody advertise if there are no shops to sell things? And I couldn't imagine anybody shopping online because you didn't need to go anywhere. So why would you buy anything? Nobody needs to look fantastic for the last two years. Not really, no. Plus, we had all the time. to sort of look in our closets and actually find things that were still there with the price tags on it, yes. Rediscover, rediscover. So the initial reaction was like, oh, okay, you know, advertisement must be over. And sort of like happy to report that that wasn't really the case. I think a lot of advertisers, a lot of brands are also very actively looking at different... models than just uh advertisement no for sure but i think it's i think it's like i i just think everybody tries to do everything is kind of my point and i think it's like exhausting i think that's one thing that like yeah whatever you think of monocle's content i think that they've done such a great job of not diluting it and i think you guys do the same thing it's like hey this is kind of what we do and like we'll we'll you know reach out here and there and we'll do some different things but they all feel real i mean monocle not having a fucking website

And doing radio is insane. You know what I mean? But it feels good. And whether you think it's insane or not, it would work for them for a bunch of reasons, of course. But I think that's the hardest thing to do for anyone. I mean, even for us, it's like, what can we do to increase revenue without diluting the brand? Should you do one of those covers that's animated? Or should you guys have a Fantastic Man TikTok meme account? You know, all this stuff. Like it could help you in the short run, but then your core audience who has been there for 17 years is going to be like, well, once they started doing TikToks, I kind of realized that this was not the fantastic man for me anymore. I guess so, yeah. I mean, that's what I would think if I was a reader. Yeah, that's kind of a struggle that I think about of like when you have a product that's been around almost 20 years and you have that core audience that's been there forever and you don't want to let them down, but you have to evolve and appeal to the younger demographic that, The three of us are no longer on the cutting edge of anymore. And how do you kind of balance those two worlds out in your own unique way is the real challenge. Do you think you guys are doing a good job with that? Is that a question? Yeah. Or are you only making stuff for old people like us? Well, I mean, I always think we make things for ourselves. That's right. That's right. That's the answer we're looking for. Of course. But what happens when yourself is... too old for for what your what your brand is but i don't think it's about age i think it's about taste and like being interesting and being interested in things you know what i mean like i think if you're if you're 50 but you you're still tapped in and you know what's interesting and you're stay true to that i think that kind of can carry through but 19 year olds are going to be like you think that you know what is cool and you think you are tapped in but what you are tapped into is no longer relevant to my generation i don't think you need i don't think fantastic man needs 19 year olds i mean they're welcome No, no, I agree. They're welcome. I'm saying I don't think that every person is the target, like anything else. Yeah, I mean, well, eventually at some point you guys are going to be 90 years old and you're not going to be making a magazine for 90-year-olds anymore. No. Well, I mean, but obviously we're not making the magazine alone. And yes, it's important to have...

a team of editors and friends around us and designers. You need fresh blood. Yeah, exactly. It's great to work with young people. That's a massive cliche. No, it is. I agree with you. We've got to keep them around. Chris has a stable of young men. I feel like you might have a bigger stable than me of young men. I could be wrong. Who's to say? I don't want to argue about it. You know what I mean? I don't want to argue about it. Do you think you have a level of media training? Do you think that you have a set of rules for when you're interviewing someone or being interviewed that you try to stick to? Or are you kind of fast and loose in the world? No, I don't try to follow any rules for that. For doing interviews, I think we've always stuck to certain rules. I don't feel like they change very fast. to speak to people on a on an equal level i i really don't like it to sort of have to excuse yourself as an interviewer for the first three minutes of being amazingly honored that somebody took the incredible effort to uh to answer a few questions you know i i i don't you know even though i'm pleased that people do i think it's a you know i think a good interview is a is an equal conversation and it's a it's very difficult to do a good interview if that there's no mutual interest in a way and i don't expect people to be completely aware of my past and and everything i've written in the past but if you do an interview and people just blank and are just sitting there to answer questions i find that difficult so so i i think the equal level is uh is important and there are small rules you know just journalistically that I never like it to have interviews take place in a photo studio because I think that feels like it's a little thing tagged on. I mean, just notice. I agree. I agree. Especially in style and fashion magazines, like every other interview describes the scene in a photo studio. And I immediately know, okay, this is not an interesting interview because it's something that needed to happen while the makeup was being applied. Even though in reality,

occasionally, not very often, but sometimes it happens that, you know, that's the only moment where we can interview people, but you don't have to mention that. Yeah, exactly. Just write it out. You know, sort of like edit it out. Don't say that. I'm a big fan of editing. Oh, totally. It's huge. Editing is half of the magic. I agree. We encounter this sometimes on this show because we do so many interviews. We encounter... People who we have asked, they have agreed to come on the show. They probably have friends who have come on the show. They've never listened, which we kind of like, honestly, because then it's a little bit more fun. It's a little more of a surprise. I think that with a magazine, especially as long as you've been around, most people are going to take the time to Google it and see what it's all about and maybe read an interview or two. I interviewed Gore Vidal once, and this was for our other magazine, Butts. And he started by saying, you say butt? I mean, as in B-U-T-T? As in culo? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Culo? And he seemed a little bit puzzled about it. But then he did the same interview as he always did, I think, because he sort of like had a... library of anecdotes that he... Do you like it when people do that? No, not at all, no. I mean, anecdotes are almost forbidden. Oh, that's another... That's another rule. Rule in editing. I think with someone like Gore Vidal, it's like a little bit... like you want him so bad that it's probably okay you know what i mean because of who he is and what he's done no and it's amazing i mean i was i was still thrilled to meet him and talk to him yeah we we've had like when we had ian schrager on this podcast a while ago you could tell every response to every question has been uttered thousands of times over the last 50 years yes so that part is a bummer to hear some you know these orchestrated responses but

When they're so good and they're so honed, it's like seeing a Bob Dylan show where you're like, I've heard it a thousand times, but it's just so good. I would say with Ian or with certain people like that that are kind of like a legend status, for us too, I think there's a little bit of an educational thing going on where maybe a lot of our listeners either know a little bit about him or definitely haven't heard these anecdotes before. So I don't feel as bad. You know, it's like, it's kind of, it's kind of fine. If you're playing the hits and the hits are good, then it's okay. Well, it's a, it's a mysterious thing that I never wanted to, or a rule that we never wanted to follow in Fantastic Man or any of our other magazines, but people basically only want to know and hear things that they know already. I mean, that's the reason why Titanic is the most popular subject for books. Because, you know, it's not like there's never been any other boat who sank. But people love the story. People love to read a story that they know the end of. People love a cover of a magazine that is the exact same cover as they did last year. You know that famous research that they did, right? That I think a magazine like Elle or so republished the same cover and it's all better the second time. Yeah, no, no, I know. It's fucking crazy. People love things they're familiar with. And I hate that. It's so lazy. It's so... It takes away the... the spark of something new, you know? And there's so many magazines, there's so many movies, there's so many books out there I would never want to repeat. But, you know, you're unique in that sense. Oh, don't gas him up. Don't do that. Don't gas him up. Thank you, Eric. Thank you very much. Oh, you're so unique, Jason. I'm not like the other consumers. So whenever we have musicians on the show, we have a thing where we talk to them about syncs, which are like commercial music deals for some of their songs. And I feel like you might have some of that as well. So we like to have people talk about maybe a story where a brand or an advertiser came on and said, hey, we want to do this. And they either said yes and made a lot of money and regretted it, or they said no and lost a lot of money and regretted it. So have you had any situations like that over the years where you had to kind of say yes in a desperate time of money needing or say no?

It came back to be like, eh, I should have done that. I could have bought my summer house. God, that's a hard one. I don't think we've been very close to signing the Beatles or anything like that. No, you know, like for one band, they were like a straight-edge vegan band, and they got asked if Kentucky Fried Chicken wanted to use one of their songs for a quarter of a million dollars, and they said no. And now that he's like in his 50s, he's like, eh, I should have done that. Can I think of one? I can't think of one, I think. Never had to do, you know, H&M wants to do a 10-page spread, something like that. We've done six pages of H&M in the magazine. He said, H&M is no problem. You guys call me anytime, anytime. But we shot it, and it was quite a fun project. Okay. The power of having a magazine like this is people want what you have. They want you to make them look cooler, and they're going to let you do as you wish with their product because that's better for everybody. I don't know. I mean, I also don't really. It's good to be. Quite shameless, I think. As a journalist, you have to be shameless in a way because you very often have to make a fool of yourself to jump through all kinds of hoops, maybe with a little sense of shame. And then, you know, too bad. We embarrass ourselves three times a week on this podcast. It's no problem. I have no shame. I have no shame in that. I guess so. Do you listen to podcasts yourself here? I listen to one podcast, which is a political podcast here in the Netherlands. Because if I ever would need to switch jobs, I think I'd love to be a political correspondent or something. I mean, no, not really. I don't want to work in that, but I love listening to politics. So you like the action and the constant... chatter around it or you really care about the issues? Both, I think. But I like the power game around it. I think one of my favorite books is Catherine Graham's Personal History because it's such a fascinating story of the incredible power she and her husband had around the presence that they had around them. We had somebody on last weekend and he was talking about how

He's an older guy, and he was talking about in the 70s, 80s, 90s, culture was sort of defined by music, like music was sort of the driver for the zeitgeist and the monoculture in the world, and now it's been replaced by politics and streaming television. What do you think about politics itself being kind of the main driver of culture nowadays in the world? Do you think that's healthy or unhealthy? I think it's definitely unhealthy. Same. Yeah. I mean, it's a driver of news probably more than it ever was. I mean, although I can't really compare it to the 1960s or 70s, there was a lot of political drama as well. Definitely. Surely the world was more interesting when music was driving. driving culture, I think. I wonder the difference. I mean, here it's obviously completely insane, which I'm sure you're very aware of, I'm sure. Yeah, the political world in America is less fun to keep up with, I'm assuming, than what you have going on over there. No, it's interesting you say that because I used to subscribe to the New Yorker. I think at the time when Bush was still there and Obama was being voted in, I mean, that was a... Super exciting time to sort of see the possible shift. And, you know, Graydon Carter in Vanity Fair was amazing every month. You know, his letter from the editor was kind of sort of going wild out on everybody in the Bush administration. And then, of course, when Trump got elected, I just stopped reading any American. Smart. Publication because it was unbearable. Yeah, no, it's still unbearable. I feel like, unfortunately, that might be the future. Like, I don't see it becoming better anytime soon because just everything is so divisive. You know what I mean? There's no... It's becoming harder and harder to stay apolitical in America. Yeah, yeah. It's like, I mean, a lot of people, though, are in your camp, but they live here that are just like, I can't digest any of this anymore.

So do you think that music doesn't have that role anymore at all? I think that music specifically is too – we're too fragmented and we have too much access where people only pay attention to the minutia that they want to pay attention to. You know what I mean? I think what Bob, the guest that Jason is talking about, I think what he is saying is like there were things like hippies. You know what I mean? And the things that went with that, there were these things that were so big and just so – kind of all-encompassing, and the music that went with that, whether it's the Beatles or the Stones or whatever, that can't exist now, really. Harry Styles is, I guess, pretty close to that in some ways, but also incomparable in other ways because there's no movement attached to it. It's just strictly like, this sounds good, this looks good, I like it. I think that music used to be... You know, your identity and now it's an accessory to your life and the content that you're creating for your own personal brand. So people used to use music as a way to connect with other people, have an artistic release into the world. And now people look at music as how can I use this for me to make my life. my presence bigger, my social media following grow, whatever. We use this example a lot on this show, but it's like, you know, when you're, when I was like a, you know. 13-year-old chubby suburban teenager and I would go to the beach with my parents, if I saw a kid with a Smith shirt on, I would approach him and be like, bro, this is crazy. You like the Smiths too. That kind of shit doesn't happen anymore because everybody can like everything and there's no barrier of entry. Some people think that's good. I think it can be good. I just am either nostalgic or also... I think the amount of work I had to put in to like what I liked at that age and how that's informed my life seems so big to me that the fact that that is no longer a reality for young people is a little bit hard to comprehend. I think there's an attention span or attention deficit attached to it now that we have videos and phones and screens and TikToks and everything like that. Obviously, books.

And the reading of them has declined because it's so much more difficult to pay attention to them compared to our iPhones. Yes. And I feel like it's kind of the same thing with music where people used to just be like, I'm okay with going home, putting on a record and listening to it or going for a drive and listening to an album. And now that's not enough to capture attention anymore. I need to have a visualizer and there's a dance attached to it and it has to be a McDonald's Happy Meal. Well, it's interesting that what you're saying about talking to other Smiths fans is the equivalent of that today for 13-year-olds is standing in line in front of the Supreme Show. Yeah, for sure. Being part of that group and sort of like being with your... Yeah, finding your tribe. But the Smiths tribe is based around, you know, poetic, heartfelt, artistic music and lyrics that are life changing. And then the common bond between people waiting in line for Supreme is like, oh, you also have a StockX account and you plan on selling this for four times as much as you're going to pay for it. Or you're buying these. sweatpants so somebody doesn't beat you up at school for being a loser or something you know yeah i remember the first time in soho like seeing like a 14 year old kid that just looks so young and his mom buying him like a 900 gucci sweatshirt like that was normal you know what i mean and i'm just like what an asshole everybody involved in this is an asshole and it was like stunning to me but that is what kids like It's the equivalent of me asking my parents for $20 to buy a CD. It's literally like, I need $900 for this hoodie. You're stunting the growth of this child's development. You're affecting the course of their life forever by doing that. I don't know. You're just instantly going to turn them into an asshole douchebag. Exactly, exactly. But I mean, I don't know if... Yeah, I mean, yeah, maybe we're three old guys yelling into the void. You know what I'm saying? But I also think these are realistic... they're not realistic but real kind of observations on this stuff because I do think things evolve in a way and change where like it's crazy for us to think but something as big and universal as music has taken a back seat to basically consumerism. And streaming television. Yeah, yeah, and streaming. I mean, I don't know if it's quite the same in your world but like...

Jason and I joke all the time about, like, how long is it going to take before people start talking about what show they're watching at this party? Because that's all people talk about now. Yeah, like when you go out to dinner with your friends and you're like, oh, I did this and blah, blah, blah. How are the kids? And then, are you guys watching this show right now? And then as soon as that happens, just time of death, 4.35, this conversation's over. I might as well ask for the check now. Yes. We talk about that. Jason and I have developed a friendship with Brady Snellis, who was on your cover years ago, a classic. But Brett wants to talk about TV with us because that's his business. You know what I mean? He wants to know what we're talking about. And it's like, oh, that's a different way to engage in it versus we've run out of things to talk about. Isn't Stranger Things sick? You know what I mean? Yeah. Because it's just a big part of our life now. TV wasn't such a big part of our life. Well, I think so. I mean, after the quarantine for two years, we've really become addicted to our shows and the fact that there are always going to be more shows there. You never find the end of the shows. It's a bottle that you can't stop sucking the nipple off. I don't watch the shows. You don't participate in streaming services? No. So if that conversation is started, I'm definitely asking for the check. Because I just have no clue. Well, you're the few, the proud. I wish there were more people like you. So if you're at home, you're reading or you're listening to music or you're socializing, you're not going to flip on the tube for a couple hours to decompress. I flip on the tube, but I watch the news or I watch people talking to each other. The sort of TV version of this podcast. Sure, sure. Honestly, I wish I had the power to do that. I am helpless. It's because I feel the need to participate so that I can then participate in the conversations. It's not that the shows are drawing me in that strongly. I would love America to have shows where people are talking to each other that were good, but there really aren't any. That's why Joe Rogan is the biggest person in America.

For all of his faults, he's also one of the only people that is actually doing it. You're not going to watch Gore Vidal in conversation with Johnny Carson. Or Charlie Rose, for that matter. Yeah, Charlie Rose. Yeah, any of these people. Or Letterman. You're going to watch Jimmy Fallon talk to a TikTok star, and they're going to play a game. They're going to play Twister. Or if you watch any news channel, it's just mindless garbage. But I think that that's part of the reason, and this reaffirms that, is that this is maybe why podcasts have risen in popularity in some ways. Maybe there is an appetite for people to want that kind of thing. Clearly. Because of the budgets and kind of the... The scale of television, it hasn't reached that again in America. And I'm able to listen to these conversations in my headphones while I'm doing other things because my attention span has been destroyed by my cell phone. I can't just sit down in front of a TV and watch two guys talk to each other. I'm going to lose my mind. But if I can do the dishes, take the dogs out for a pee-pee while I'm listening to this wonderful convo, then my attention span is satiated. And this is why we pod, Yurt. Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm happy you do. I hope this inspires you to podcast more in the future. I've been thinking about it, funnily enough. I mean, of course. Lots of people have thought about it, but I'm always scared to sort of... start and then realize after five weeks that it's uh that it's quite a lot of work i think it looks very easy to people um and in some ways it is you know i mean if you if you're good at having a conversation you enjoy it that part is easy i think that we're in a lucky position because jason is technically very talented that's good and is able to do that side of things but i also think that we had no expectations when we started this i think when you're coming at it

be as good as the magazine, feel as good, look as good, you know, and that's, you're already busy enough as it is. Well, also that, sure. Yeah. So you sometimes think like, oh, that's a, you know, I can do that on the side, sort of chit chat a little bit with people, but of course it's not really that. And we've seen it a lot with magazines as well, where people think like, oh, okay, you know, this is what they do. You know, especially I think when Fantastic Man started, it was like, oh, a couple of black and white pictures. uh you know some q a's with people you just let the tape rolling and you transcribe it and you put it on a page and then you know those magazines exist for one or maximum two issues and then they realize that it's more work than that so i i also realize that in something as delightfully simple as a podcast is that yes you know there's a there's a magic ease to it. The way that you guys do the newsletter, I really like. I think the cadence is good. I think the information is good. But I also think that putting older stuff or stuff that people don't have access to online is a real reason to subscribe. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, yeah, I'm going to get the dispatch, and there's some cool stuff in here, but there's also going to be things that I either didn't know existed or I didn't have access to, and I think that's a nice value proposition, and I think figuring out what that is for a podcast would lead to success. It's called Patreon. Yeah, yeah. I mean, magazine subscriptions are just Patreon. Here's the free shit on the website. Here's the other shit that you've got to pay for. One last question. Are there any new magazines that we should know about? I'm a pretty avid reader and collector. I do have the new comeback issue of Butt. A friend of the show left it for me when he stayed at my apartment. The beautiful pink paper has returned. Are there things that I should be aware of that I might not be? Anything that's caught your eye? A new magazine that you wish you made yourself, maybe?

A new magazine. God, that's a hard one. Do you know that French magazine, L'Étiquette? Yeah, of course. Yeah, I love Gaultier. He's so good. He's great. I think that magazine, that's a good example. Not brand new because it's like four years old, I think. But I mean, it's very strict in its style because it's like everybody looks exactly the same in that magazine. But that's also very interesting about it. Yeah, I love that. I think he's got such great taste. And it's like that didn't exist. Kind of like a men's independent fashion magazine that feels pretty current. Him and I like what he likes, so it speaks to me. It's not the newest idea. Sorry. No, no, no. Well, because you did it first. I'll hate myself for forgetting somebody because in an hour's time, I'm like, oh, wait. Well, I'll email you if I... No, it's okay. You can email me. But I think that... Yeah, I think that's a good example. But thank you for chatting with us today, Yurt. It was a pleasure. Pleasure. And like I said, I'm a longtime reader, so it was really nice to talk to you. And I know we had Penny on the show as well, which was a blast. So we're trying to check off all the boxes. We got the staff going over there. You know what I mean? Yeah, thank you again. We appreciate it. Great. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure talking. How many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount, safe driver discount, new vehicle discount, storage discount. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com slash auto discounts. Restrictions apply.